My son, who is a college pitcher, has pain in his right elbow, the doctor said he overextended it. He has been icing and resting but does anyone have any other suggestions to help this. Maybe special exercises etc.
thanks

mmac,

I'm not sure what you mean. Did the doctor say that he hyperextended it or that he overexerted it? Did he just start throwing for the season? Has he ever had this problem before?

I ask because I have been talking to 5 other guys (just this week) who are experiencing similar problems.

Given his age (>16), he could benefit from a conditioning program that strengthened the muscles around his elbow (e.g. iron balls and/or rubber tubing). You might want to buy Tom Seaver's book on pitching. In it he talks at length about his conditioning program.

I also believe that there are a few tweaks that he could make to his mechanics (and that won't hurt his velocity). One is an idea that I call Early Pronation.

I don't want to cross-post, so if you want to hear more about my recommendations, go on over to the Pitching Mechanics forum that I moderate in www.LetsTalkPitching.com (it's free). This morning I'm going to post an article that talks about this at length.

Feel free to e-mail me if you have any more questions.

Hope this helps,

Chris O'Leary
chris@chrisoleary.com

MMac did the doctor say he was fit to throw ?
Otherwise shut him down and get a referral to a sports doctor and determine if there is any damage.
A catcher I know ingnored the pain and is no longer playing.

thanks for your answers - he has been using a conditioning program with weighted balls and rubber tubing but dont know yet if it is helping, probably too soon to tell. I will check on your forum later today. I am seeing the Doctor ( he is a sports doctor ) today (for another son with bad knees!) so I will ask him again what to advise. Son is away at school (northeast) and really doesnt start training for another week so hopefully he has time to rest. Thanks

mmac

Rest may not be the answer-- he should see an ortho/sports doc IMMEDIATELY--- conditioning programs do not help if the damage has already been done

The college he is at should have a trainer or training staff. They are there to take care of these issues. Proper procedure would be to go to them first.

Listen to TR. Mmac said the doctor said it was hyperextended and that he was icing and resting. But then he says he's using weighted balls and tubing? Who told him to do that? The first doctor? If he doesn't like the diagnosis or treatment plan from the doctor, then go to another doctor for another opinion. A kids arm is too important to leave to Coach Chris's armchair pontifications. It's one thing to purport yourself as a pitching instructor, or guru, or anything else, but let's not speculate on injuries and offer that a specific training program or a book will heal an injury.

quote:

Stay away from inexperienced shaman.

This isn't just my idea.

The idea of pronation gained widespread attention as a result of the work of Dr. Mike Marshall (at least). Its effectiveness has also been independently validated by others including Glenn Fleisig and James Andrews.

On page 465 of the paper "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA., the authors make the following statement...

"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."

When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation. The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.

The reason that I use the term Early Pronation is that we have since learned that all pronation is not the same. Tom House and Will Carroll talk a lot about pronation, but as the experience of Mark Prior and many other profession pitchers with elbow problems demonstrates, pronating is not enough.

You have to do it at the right moment (which is while the arm is accelerating, not just at the release point) for pronation to protect the elbow.

If you want to learn more about this, below is a link to an article I wrote that discusses the difference between Early Pronation and Late Pronation...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/essays/pronateearlyandoften.html

Chris it becomes your idea when you pass it on just like it becomes your bullet when you pull the trigger.
This is why I called you scary. Its not like you are going to hurt yourself but rather some young player who needs medical advice from a proper source.

quote:

Chris it becomes your idea when you pass it on just like it becomes your bullet when you pull the trigger.

So do you have a problem when Will Carroll and Tom House talk about it?

What's scary is that they don't understand the subtleties involved; that if you don't do it soon enough, it won't have the desired result (but at least also won't have a negative result). It's also scary that they are lulling people into having a false sense of security.

Now you are showing the dilusional part. How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor. That is why House uses a docto (John Gleddies) for the medical issues in his books.
Did you read the ranting I posted on your Marshall thread ? Dosen't he sound similsr to you. The only difference is he followsw Dick Mills.

Coach Chris,

For someone who writes volumes, you have either a reading or comprehension problem here.

The kid has pain in the elbow. He saw a doctor. He doesn't need you and your pronation right now. He needs professionals in the medical profession.

Do you have an M.D. or any medical certifications? EMS training? Candy Striper ever? Beyond that, where have you coached? Did you ever play beyond Little League (or even in LL, if I use that as a measure because I've watched that mess of a video in your yard).

You're a little scary.

quote:

How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor.

But mmac said she already went to see a doctor. Therefore, I'm not making a diagnosis.

She also explicitly asked for other suggestions.

BTW, she said "overextended" not "hyperextended" which is ambiguous.

Coach Chris,

Honestly, I'm having trouble with the "Coach" part of your name.

You are no different than a person practicing law without a JD or someone posing as a doctor with nothing more than a HS diploma.

You get scarier with every post you make.

The other advice is get a second opinion from a sports doctor. That is the only advice we are qualified to give.

quote:

Do you have an M.D. or any medical certifications? EMS training? Candy Striper ever? Beyond that, where have you coached? Did you ever play beyond Little League (or even in LL, if I use that as a measure because I've watched that mess of a video in your yard).

I answer this question (at length) on my web site...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/WhoIAmAndHowIGotHere.html

As I say there, one thing that I believe prepared me to do this type of work was a job (that I held over 3 Summers) working as a paralegal analyzing the medical histories of people who said they had asbestosis (99% didn't). To be able to do this job I first had to understand the physiology of the lungs and the pathology of asbestosis (e.g. Pleural Plaques and Mesothelioma). I analyzed somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 medical histories and in that time our client only lost one verdict (due to a clear-cut case of Mesothelioma).

I never pitched at the professional, college, or even high school levels. I did try out for my college team but ended up having to pull out due to the damage that I did to my shoulder when I was younger (which is a big part of the reason why I care so much about this).

The extent of my early experience pitching was numerous Indian Ball and pickup games during high school and later on in college. However, I am the batting practice coach for my sons' teams, which has forced me to learn to throws strikes and hit certain spots in the zone. I also work with the catchers and throw them balls all over in (and more importantly out of) the strike zone.

I have spent the past 5 years serving as my son's (11U) pitching coaching and the pitching coach of the teams he has played on. My son, who has been taught exclusively by me, was one of the top pitchers on his CYC team (he's a Greg Maddux type location and control pitcher). He has also never had any arm pain (or even soreness).

During my time coaching my son's teams, I have had to deal with pitchers who developed pain as a result of a mechanical flaw (e.g. supinating rather than pronating the wrist as they released the ball).

quote:

And, you just diagnosed it over the internet, issued a change in mechanics without monitoring it in person. How will he know if he is pronating at the right time? If he doesn't do it at the right time, is there a possibility he may cause further damage?

No I didn't. The doctor did. That's also why I asked for the clarification.

That's also why I gave her suggestions, which is what she asked for (and which is what she would get if she talked to Will Carroll and/or read saving the pitcher).

If he doesn't pronate at the right moment, then he will continue to damage his arm as before (but no worse). Pronating at the wrong moment won't hurt him. It just won't help him.

To summarize, you have very little playing experience, you never coached a kid older than 11, you're not a doctor and you researched for a lawyer as a summer job. It's like you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night and woke up as Leo Mazzone.

I hope everyone has a good understanding of your background before taking anything you say as good baseball advice. For their safety...

quote:

Now you are showing the dilusional part. How can you compare yourself to them and their advice would be see a qualified doctor.

First of all, it's "de"-lusonal.

Second, if you listen to Will Carroll, he is constantly talking about pronation (which is a good thing).

Do you have a problem when he talks about it?

Here's a recent example of Will Caroll talking about pronation in the context of the Gyroball...

http://letstalkpitching.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=287&start=12

Just for the record, the Gyroball makes me nervous. I don't know if there's a safe way to throw it.

quote:

BTW, when you throw BP for the eleven year-olds, what distance do you throw from?

My 11U guys throw from 47'. Since I'm 6'1" I either throw from my knees (less and less often -- it's getting dangerous) or from about 55'. That way the ball comes in on a plane that resembles the path of a ball thrown by a 10 year-old.

If I throw from 47' my release point is too high and the guys have a hard time hitting the ball since it has so much vertical movement.

With my 7U guys I either pitch fast underhand or from my knees (less risk due to softer balls, not necessarily weaker swings).