My 10 year old son (soon to be 11) throws from the eleven o'clock arm slot. I love the downward angle he gets and he seems to induce his share of ground balls. Are there any disadvantages throwing from this arm slot that I should be aware of?
Depends on what he's doing to achieve such a high arm slot. I'd be on the look-out for postural issues which can lead to timing issues which can lead to health issues.
He's a righty. It's just that I don't see too many kids his age who throw from such a high arm slot, and truth be told I'm not sure it's his natural arm slot or if he's chosen it because he likes the downward angle and the results it produces. Last year he threw from more of a ten o'clock position. He has a tendency to experiment on the fly - something that drives me to the brink of insanity.
There's another kid on the team who throws from the same arm slot, with pretty much the same results and when I watch him pitch he looks like he's forcing the high arm angle rather than it coming natural, if that makes sense. Now I wonder if my son is doing the same.
Both mine were very tall, strong, smooth, mechanically pretty, mid/upper 80's, natural "over the top/high arm angle" pitchers through HS...one lefty, one righty...
Both had successful youth and HS pitching careers, one good, one great...championships, awards...yada, yada, yada...
Was told point blank by numerous scouts/recruiters that they liked 'em...size, grades, mechanics, upside, athleticism...BUT that the high arm angle combined with under 90 mph doomed them at the next level. Was told that a fastball coming out of a high arm angle arrived much more flat (in a single plane) than one that came both down and at an angle (two planes)...Was told that as a general rule, mid to high 90's high angle fastball worked at a high college level...any less velocity and it did not. As a result the better one got no serious interest as a DI pitcher. The other no serious 4 year interest at all. Have heard this same story from others.
Both are playing college ball now and pitching sucessfully (one at DI -primarily a position player- and one at JC and headed up). Both went through difficult, long, drawn out, arm angle changes when they got to college, neither are nearly as smooth or as "natural" as they used to be but much harder to read as a result.
Knowing what I know now?...Get him looked at by a quality pitching coach for a professional opinion, but IMO, Let him have some fun...assuming he is not "pinwheeling"...let him throw from whatever arm angle he wants, hard enough for a young pitcher to learn the craft without that added difficult change/pressure. If the young man works hard and sticks to the craft and has some talent he will likley have a nice successful, happy, youth/HS career. Anything beyond that is a bonus, the player will make changes at that point with passion if need be. MIne did.
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Posts: 2248 | Location: CA | Registered: May 15, 2005
Originally posted by Marklaker: What sort of postural issues should I be on the lookout for?
Watch for head and spine tilting to the glove side and redirecting momentum offline from the direction of the pitch. When the body goes one direction while the arm tries to throw the ball in a different direction, that breaks the kinetic chain and results in throwing with all arm.
Also watch for any tilting causing early shoulder rotation.
Do you have any video or a picture of what your are describing?
Just curious, because if I'm understanding you correctly, it is almost impossible to maintain a 90 degree arm/spine angle (looking at a front view of a player) without tilting the spine/shoulders with this high of an arm slot.
Anything higher than a "9 o'clock" arm slot (basically side arm) will cause your shoulders to tilt. They have to to clear the way for the arm to come through.
Posts: 319 | Location: MI | Registered: August 16, 2005
I have in fact noticed a slight tilting to the glove side by both the head and the spine. It's what led me to question whether this is the right arm slot for him. At times it appears he's purposefully clearing his head and shoulder to get his arm into the high slot. Quite frankly, his motion now looks forced rather than fluid. I'm going to take a hard look at this. Thanks!
Observer44: Compelling story....much food for thought. Thanks for sharing!
Originally posted by observer44: . natural "over the top/high arm angle" pitchers through HS...one lefty, one righty...
Was told that a fastball coming out of a high arm angle arrived much more flat (in a single plane) than one that came both down and at an angle (two planes)...Was told that as a general rule, mid to high 90's high angle fastball worked at a high college level...any less velocity and it did not. -
OB44: Do you mean the "High arm angle" cause them to throw under 90? I don't think high arm-angle will cause the ball to be more flat or sigle Plane. From top to bottom plus inside out or outside in are still two planes. It's much harder to hit, because the deceptions it creats with the arm action. It's much harder to timing the pitch. And it's also much easier to hide the ball. The most kids throw under 90 won't make it. You balme the "high arm angle doomed it", that's not credible.
Posts: 190 | Location: us | Registered: March 01, 2008
kbat..Sorry...didn't mean to imply that high arm angle alone determined velocity...or lack thereof...
...and...I would agree that under 90 is a huge barrier to high DI...and would agree that velocity is by far the biggest barrier...not the arm angle. On the other hand, as I DID say in that whole sentence...
quote:
...the high arm angle combined with under 90 mph doomed them at the next level.
Meaning...that while under 90 is very difficult to overcome to get to high DI, under 90 AND a high arm slot IS doom-ing.
...Why?...
REgardless of what I think about the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the high arm slot...no matter what mechnical rational or phsyics I can come up with...based upon 8 years of showcases, recruting, candid conversations with scouts and coaches, and other parents whose sons have natural high arm slots...the majority of people who make the decisions, (Coaches, recruiters, scouts...) about who moves forward at each level...simply do not share that view...they make the decisions and they DO see the high arm slot fastball as a huge liability until mid 90's, and simply dooming at under 90. I was told flat out that they would have been considered completely differently with lower arm slots.
The original question of the thread was what should a "high arm slot parent" know? They should now that whether it is valid or not...that there is a bias beyond the HS level...
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Posts: 2248 | Location: CA | Registered: May 15, 2005
Fair enough, Observer44. It seems like only Tim Lincecum got it right. I wish I can find more MLB pitchers throw at high arm angle. But I can't find many. Does it mean high arm angle hamper the speed? Anyone has an idea about this?
Posts: 190 | Location: us | Registered: March 01, 2008
. Lincecum is a wonder...such a treat to see each start here on TV. But at 98-100, the worry about arm slot is dramatically lessened.
Mine are both faster now a lower arm slots...but I don't attrbute it to the change. Much more likley Long toss, bands, weights, stretching, maturity...I think they would have gone up anyway.
I would contend that lack of high arm slots is in part it is a self fulfilling prophecy. All other things being equal...velocity, pitches, execution, size...the lower arm slots move up. As there are fewer high arm slotsthere are fewer to emulate, or coaches to point to....again, some measure of bias/smarts (depending upon your view).
Also blame Randy Johnson....
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Posts: 2248 | Location: CA | Registered: May 15, 2005
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